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Entry #1

An Argument on Logic

2008-02-13 19:26:27 by MortifiedPenguins

One day, lets just say, in January.

I decided that I should share my wonderfull world of insights (Life, the Universe, Everything) during a meeting of the debate club.

Current topic: Should members of an organised religion be banned from any active role in government.

People, I kid you not. This was an actual topic for debate, this was an actual idea put up by the moderating teacher.

I, as I hoped many others there would be, was shocked, appaled and even offended. But I was the only. Not a single other soul showed any reaction.

So, I in all my thoughts on human decensy, raised my hand and asked for a change of topic, noting the unlikely hood of this every happening, the injustices of it to the Constitution and the illogical nature of it.

The reply from the teacher was that he didn't make the topic, that he has in fact never made any of our debate topics, but rather that they are student submitted and evaluated by a select board that I was not on.

So, some mousey looking girl that's usually always in the back and never talks, a person that I favored up to this point, stands up and says, " Well, I brought this topic up, because your type of people have always been notoriously close minded, arrogant and repressive of others beliefs."

My reply was that the response was illogical and ironic.

So was religion, she said.

I stopped, there was no point, I can't win at that.

One cannot move a stone with words alone.


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2008-02-13 19:30:00

It's not like that subject is seriously being considered in our country (a huge amount of our population belongs to some form of religion).

Of course, I belong to the Church of the Subgenious, so you probably won't like my opinions of religion.

MortifiedPenguins responds:

I'm not going to be offened what you believe in .

Speak your mind.


2008-02-13 19:39:20

i truthfully dont believe in any religion of any kind u can call me an atheist or h/e u spell it but that also dosnt mean that i think we have frozen souls in our bodys (lol)i have worked up an almost flualess defense for a debate like this and unless the god/goddess f your religion acually speaks/contacts me only then will i belive but the chance of that or 0 lol

MortifiedPenguins responds:

See, thats the thing.

You can't rationally debate something that runs on the ideas of faith.

I mean, the idea of faith is believing in something that can't be proven.

So, yes it would take the act of the Holy Spirit to move you.

Btw it's Christianity.


2008-02-13 19:57:47

"One cannot move a stone with words alone."

That's why they invented dynamite.

You should have brought in the big guns with "what the hell is 'your type of people' supposed to mean? Isn't that the same language frequently related with RACISTS....bitch?"

MortifiedPenguins responds:

There's no point to argue with one that does not listen.

Sometimes I like to just piss people off, sometimes I don't.

There I won't.


2008-02-16 00:50:55

You get all upset over this, a mere debate topic, yet in many states of America Atheists can't hold public office or testify in court.

See how there's a difference?

MortifiedPenguins responds:

Give me one example of an Athiest not being able to testify in court, one.

And not holding office is simple, people don't like them, so they don't vote for. A La democracy.

Other than that , I wouldn't call this upset. You haven't seen me upset before, I call this mildly annoyed.


2008-02-16 19:04:16

Quite frankly, Atheists have infinitely more to be "Mildly Annoyed" about.

In Arkanas, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, South Carolina, North Carolina, Texas, and Many others, one must profess belief in god to be able to testify in court or to hold public office.
Atheists aren't allowed to join the Boy scouts, a government funded organization, and are allowed the use public land for their operations.

And here you are getting annoyed over a debate topic that means nothing.

MortifiedPenguins responds:

You mean the whole, "Will you tell the truth, whole truth etc etc so help you God thing"

This is interesting though, you have any links or anything on this.

And to be fair, I never liked the boyscouts, and yes it does have open discrimation policies.

But it does discrimate and I know you would like to hear this, but many states are starting to stop funding the BSA due to it's discrimination policies.

Conneticut for example.

Listen, I'm not going to say that Athiest don't face discrimation and the like, far be it for me to say that. I'm mearly criticing that for people that constantly pride themselves on openmindness and anti-discrimation, doesn't it seem funny that they sometimes sound like a Baptist minister.

Maybe it's just human nature,


2008-02-21 21:51:13

A nation isn't a democracy if they bar people from serving in government based on their personal views or attitudes.

If I was debating her, and she said "So is religion". I'd say, "So are half the ideologies in the world. So are half the dreams and aspirations that human beings have, but to deny people their vision and their dreams because you don't believe in them is a crime against democracy. If we are to say that a man is unfit to lead because he believes differently than the established government, than how are we any better than the nation that denies democracy altogether"


2008-02-22 11:13:34

Actually, I think you could, since she implicitly used that fantasticly-stupid-that-was-proven-fa lse-thousands-of-years-ago-by-the-gre eks ad-hominem argument that completly missed the point and you should have immediatly countered by pointing that out.

Instead off adressing the issues you raised and countering your reply (which, by the way, was incomplete, as should have explained why her first reply was illogical), she merely used one of the most fantasticly stupid ad-hominen arguments ever.

She basicly was trying to say: religion is illogical and ironic, thus people who belive in religion are illogical and ironic and thus any argument that you make is illogical and stupid.

Here's the play by play of pointing where she's wrong:

- She's making a very strong hipotheses that religion is ironic and illogical, which alone could be argued, but it's not really necessary.

- She is then implicitly making the completly illogical argument that belive who belive in things that are illogical and ironic are necessarily illogical and ironic. That's simply not logical. You could perfectly reason that makes pretty much everyone in the human race illogical, just selecting a few examples of supersticion or illogical reasoning that everyone commits all the time. You could have again debated her on this, but the next point is the killer.

- She then, again, used implicitly that god-dammed ad-hominem argument of saying that because you are illogical and ironic your statements are worthless. Thats. Simply. WRONG. Always attack ad-hominem arguments. They should never, ever be used in a logical debate.

Btw, I may be wrong, but isn't the point of debate clubs to discuss polemic things? So as to increase the debating skills of their participants? In that case, I actually disagree with you that the subject was a bad one.

If, on the other hand, it's to seriously discuss things the interest of participants, then obviously it was a poor subject to debate for the very reasons you presented.

And if you reply, please leave a message on my user page, else I might not check back on your page. Thanks.


2008-02-24 00:13:19

At Feb. 22, 2008 | 11:13 AM, Vert said:

: ...since she implicitly used that fantasticly-stupid argument...

: ...making a very strong hipotheses

Not to detract from your argument in any way, but LOL WUT.


2008-03-14 20:21:33

So are you a member of an organized religion, and therefore offended?


2008-04-10 21:19:27

This post is oooollddd.


2008-04-25 20:16:08

You honestly could have won, by pointing out that all people are evolved roughly equally and religion is merely a personal belief and normally doesn't effect your ability to lead. I also be shocked by the lack of reaction from the topic by others, but I am no longer surprised by the average persons ignorance and naivety.


2008-07-03 18:28:57

Is your username from that one Splinter Cell: Pandora Tommarow mission?


2008-09-02 19:33:36

People are usually mad at the demon they see in themselfs, but today's people are too self centered to admit to it.

So they blame it on others. An elitist world we live in.